I challenge Lou Dobbs...

...to mention this study, commissioned by the National Venture Capital Association, which shows the market cap of public companies founded by immigrant (to US) entrepreneurs exceeds $ 500 billion. It is chock full of other stats on immigrant entrepreneurs and professionals.

Fair is fair, Lou. You lead the negative talk around immigration. Share the positive news also.

Of course, some folks (including immigrants) will use this as justification to say only white collar, high value immigration should be allowed. May I remind folks that the dirt poor, mostly blue collar Irish, Italians, Jews who came in the last century made their own huge contributions.

As Oscar Handlin, The Uprooted - winner, Pulitzer Prize in history, 1952 wrote

"“Once I thought to write a history of the immigrants in America. Then I discovered that the immigrants were American history."

As I have said before Immigration is a US core competence. The Europeans, Asians have not learned how to leverage it. It will continue to be our competitive edge.

Comments

[PJGoober]

"Of course, some folks (including immigrants) will use this as justification to say only white collar, high value immigration should be allowed. May I remind folks that the dirt poor, mostly blue collar Irish, Italians, Jews who came in the last century made their own huge contributions."

1. Quotas had to be applied to keep jews OUT of college from the moment they arrived. Hispanics, in contrast have needed affirmative action for decades. Note that Jewish americans to this day still have a higher incomes, education, nobel prize winning rates etc.. than Irish and Italians. Trends from the past like that can and do persist. You can't just assume that in 100 years every groups SES variables will rise to the non-hispanic white mean.

2. People should address modern day arguments on modern terms. Just because some people were wrong in the past, doesn't mean we are wrong today. I think we have a lot more, and a lot more reliable data today. When you bring up modern data like your National Venture Capital Association study, would you appreciate it if I dug up what some idiot said 100 years ago to refute you?

3. Lets go back to the Jews, italians, and hispanics of yesteryear. Did they have an illegitimacy rate of nearly 50% ? Hispanics in america do. Illegitamcy correlates with a host of horrific life outcomes. When has a population groups illegitamacy rate ever reduced? That variable is one that only gets worse. And it is not all america's fault, because the illegitimacy rate in mexico isn't all that low, and asians have kept thier rate far lower than whites.

Here is a UC Irvine study showing that Mexican american second gen. immigrants have considerably worse SES variables than other 2nd gen. immigrants. That bodes ill for america, because 1. Mexicans are the biggest group of immigrants and 2. Mexicans/Mexican Americans have a high birthrate, meaning that Mexicans are even more preponderant among 2nd gen. immigrants than 1st. This is the key to the riddle of why 1st generation immigrants (when all races are aggregated) have such great crime rates, but 2nd generation immigrants are worse, and 3rd worse than them.

UC Irvine Study:
http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1529

Study sheds light on how young adult children of immigrants assimilate

[vinnie mirchandani]

PJ, I presume you are in the white collar world. I am and I tend to sometimes not be as respectful of blue collar/physical labor ...but think of where we would be without the immigrant labor which cut through the Rockies or those that pick our oranges today. This country has aborbed and made every ethnic group better - I cannot think of one ethice groups which has been a drain...I have no reason to believe Hispanics will reverse that trend. Living in Florida, I have had all kinds of great experiences with my Puerto Rican barber who has cut my hair for 16 years now, our faithful Cuban handy man, some good Mexican friends etc.

[Dennis H]

Vinnie - I'd challenge the statement about immigration as a competitive edge for the US alone. There are large parts of the UK economy that wouldn't function without blue and white collar immigrants.

Immigrants from the Far East and Eastern Europe are filling the positions required by our health service. Many of the UKs finest companies were founded by immigrants - like Tesco, Marks & Spencer, Sainsbury. The son of a Greek has pioneered 'low cost' in a variety of segments. Our finest academic and research institutions continue to attract overseas students, especially for post grad studies.

BTW - We too have our fair share of right wing nutters.

[pjgoober]

Just in case anyone doubts my hispanic illegitimacy number, here is the U.S. government Center for Disease control, not an extreme right-wing source. Here is a report from 2002. It clearly states the hispanic illegitamcy rate at 43.5% on Table 19 on page 57 of National Vital Statistics Reports, Volume 52, Number 10.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_10.pdf

I can't find a more recent direct source, but Heather Macdonald now often cites 45%, and also says its from the CDC, and it sounds plausible that it increased by a that amound in 4 years. My merely saying "almost 50 percent" without cite was sloppy.

[vinnie mirchandani]

PJ, I could find you similar scary stats about Indians and their practice of dowry, Chinese and the impact of the single child policy etc - things which make us in US recoil. At the turn of the century the Irish were similarly feared and loathed. In the late 60s there was similar fear about the coming Asian invasion. But our system has taken the best and worst from each of them and made them better. I have faith in our system and would rather focus on making sure it continues to work...

[Mohan]

Interesting report and blog...Now, if only the new congress decided to look at the challenge of uniting spouses of Legal Permanent Residents with their spouses. More about the issue and challenges at http://www.unitefamilies.org/faq/index.html

[vinnie mirchandani]

Mohan, families are an interesting issue. I think immediate, nuclear families - abosultely, but not sure brothers, sisters, parents ...merit and US needs, more than relationship should matter in immigration needs

[vinnie mirchandani]

PJ, I saw 60 minutes last night and there was an interview with the mayor of Hazleton, PA who has taken a tough stance against Hispanic illegals - see

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/17/60minutes/main2195789.shtml

Lots of complex issues - including the role of Feds versus local govenments on immigration policy and enforcement. But the end of the segment showed several local businesses are paying more for labor as the illegals leave town, several local businesses where the illegals spent their money are closing down etc...I cannot defend illegal immigration but our business people need the labor and the majority of the illegals are hard working folks just looking for an opportunity. I do not have all the answers, just want us to rationally look at all angles, not just jump to conclusions based on a few bad apples in the immigrant pool..

[Deepak]

I really struggle with the whole immigration issue. As an immigrant to the US, one who has dotted every "i" and crossed every "t" in the immigration process, I often get annoyed at the apparently easy out given to many illegals. However, at the same time, I also consider myself a global citizen. Maybe it is too Utopian a view, especially in the present, somewhat dangerous world, but why should opportunity be denied to someone just because they happen to have been born in a different country.

I do believe that immigration has been a boon to the US. Without immigration (and yes, I tend to look at white collar immigration, since that's what I understand), the US would not be where it is today, especially when it comes to the technology sector. What seems to be screwed up is the mechanisms and policies around immigration. There is no consistency and barriers who up in unexpected places and for unexpected situations.

[Anil Kurnool]

A random thought worth sharing - read it somewhere on the NET.

When there were no powered navigation systems, sonic airplanes and conveniences of travel people used make long journeys (lifetimes, at times) and were always a welcome at any alien distant land.

Now, we have ease of travel and everyone is unwelcome everywhere. :-)

[CTL]

Vinnie, I challenge YOU to link to any of Dobbs' transcripts (most should be online at CNN) in which he speaks of immigration, per se, as harmful or bad. I've probably seen his show 60-70 times over the past year or two, and am under the strong impression that he is specifically concerned with the mass ILLEGAL immigration into our country that has been happening. The U.S. does have very generous LEGAL immigration policies, and I believe he is quite fine with those as they are.

[vinnie mirchandani]

CTL - I think you are saying what I am saying - I would be deligthed to link to a positive show/transcript from Lou. He is so negative on illegal immigration that he nevers talks about the positives of legal immigration - which I what I was challenging him to do. 2 years ago he railed on US companies and offshoring but neglected to point the very same companies were also our biggest exporters. I would love to see Lou balanced. He knows better - he covered corporate America, global issues in his previous journalistic life.

Now about illegal immigration - believe me I am not for opening the flood gates. I do happen to believe that the last 4 decades have brought us fine groups of legal immigrants especially from Asia that we have forgotten we need blue collar, manual focused immigration (or atleast short term labor) and that is where Mexico helps. The Irish and the Italians who came at the turn of the centuries were not doctors or software engineers,. they were just as qualified as the Mexican illegals of today. But they made our country what it is. It is easy to look down on the illegals but if they did not find jobs in our farms and restaurants they would not be here. It's not like we make them feel welcome.

I just came off a cruise - and it has 35 nationalities in the crew - but very few Americans. We are the consumers, the Filipinos,the E. Europeans the workers. If Americans wanted those jobs you think Carnival or Royal Carribean would not prefer a labor force that related better to the mostly US consumers?

I am all for a rational debate on the illgeals issue, even with Lou if he takes a more balanced stance...

[SR]

CTL,

What are you talking about?
Have you heard him rave and rant about H1-B visas? I don't have the time to go and search for the transcripts of such a terrible show....it is sad that shows like these exist and are allowed to get away without so much as a murmur...and on the subject of illegal immigration - who is going to make your deli sandwich for you when the illegals leave? or who is going to sweep your building floor? Lou Dobbs is not going to find anyone anywhere in the US to even clean up his street....